Hell Bound
So did Jesus really die for everyone? Did he die for the unbeliever? My detestable, eternal sin is this: I don't believe the bible god exists. So when I die and discover myself standing before God Almighty, and find not my name written in the Lamb's book of life, I will be sent to eternal hell. So where is Jesus then? Where is the cross? Where is Christ's forgiveness? Where is the great depth of God's love? Where is the Father's abundant grace and mercy?
Nowhere to be found. Insidious wrath and judgment have taken their place.
My crime is this: I honestly, deep down, don't believe that God exists. How is that a crime worth eternal punishment? How is that a crime at all? If I knew I had a father like God who loved me and wanted to take care of me for all eternity, I'd accept him in an instant. However, I can't make myself believe something my brain finds unbelievable. I can't will myself to believe anymore than you, the reader, can make yourself believe that our Creators are actually an ancient alien race ready to make their second coming - if you don't believe and repent they're gonna do some nasty eternal probes on YOU! But they really do love you!
Hell is a scare tactic. Belief as the key to the in-club of heaven is an atrocious human lie taken from a book written by ignorant, superstitious primates.
The great Robert G. Ingersoll reverberates, "The idea of hell was born of ignorance, brutality, fear, cowardice, and revenge. This idea testifies that our remote ancestors were the lowest beasts. Only from dens, lairs, and caves, only from mouths filled with cruel fangs, only from hearts of fear and hatred, only from the conscience of hunger and lust, only from the lowest and most debased could come this cruel, heartless and bestial of all dogmas.
...I do not believe this doctrine; neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake, and the conscience of a hyena."
Nowhere to be found. Insidious wrath and judgment have taken their place.
My crime is this: I honestly, deep down, don't believe that God exists. How is that a crime worth eternal punishment? How is that a crime at all? If I knew I had a father like God who loved me and wanted to take care of me for all eternity, I'd accept him in an instant. However, I can't make myself believe something my brain finds unbelievable. I can't will myself to believe anymore than you, the reader, can make yourself believe that our Creators are actually an ancient alien race ready to make their second coming - if you don't believe and repent they're gonna do some nasty eternal probes on YOU! But they really do love you!
Hell is a scare tactic. Belief as the key to the in-club of heaven is an atrocious human lie taken from a book written by ignorant, superstitious primates.
The great Robert G. Ingersoll reverberates, "The idea of hell was born of ignorance, brutality, fear, cowardice, and revenge. This idea testifies that our remote ancestors were the lowest beasts. Only from dens, lairs, and caves, only from mouths filled with cruel fangs, only from hearts of fear and hatred, only from the conscience of hunger and lust, only from the lowest and most debased could come this cruel, heartless and bestial of all dogmas.
...I do not believe this doctrine; neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake, and the conscience of a hyena."
posted by R.K. at 1:05 PM
10 Comments:
I've read all your posts and all the comments and like Becky who commented on your last post, I've been wondering why you made the choices you did. I do believe that this statement puts it in a nutshell for us, and I quote you, 'If I knew I had a father like God who loved me, and wanted to take care of me for all eternity, I'd accept him in an instant.'
The problem is you've never experienced God.
You only know God as you know a character in a book.
This is the equivalent to having a father that has never held your hand or hugged you or talked to you or played a game with you.
I can bet you can tell all us all about Him, but you just don't know Him.
You need to experience God, to really know him.
How can someone truly be a father, unless you spend time together, and share experiences together?
The question is, 'do you want Him to be your father?'
M.K.
Hi M.K.,
I don't think the question "do I want Him to be my father?" is relevant. The question that must come before that one is, "do I believe he exists?" I can't accept something my mind rejects.
Ingersoll hits the nail on the head (I love that guy):
"No man can control his belief. You hear evidence for and against, and the integrity of the soul stands at the scales and tells which side rises and which side falls. You can not believe as you wish. You must believe as you must. And he might as well have said. "Go into the world and preach the gospel, and whosoever has red hair shall be saved, and whosoever hath not shall be damned."
Maybe I'll say as well that I really did know God. I used to be a believer - not one of those surface Christians in word and deed only. I had a deep, committed relationship with God. I used to go for prayer walks late at night worshipping and praising God, sometimes being brought to tears as the Spirit would fill me "...here's my life God, take it - it's yours, use me, make me into the man you want me to be, fill me with your spirit God, I love you..." as I'd break into a worship song feeling the presence of God envelope me. Most nights I'd experience a wonderful, amazing peace. I would have died for Him. Unquestionably. Jesus Christ was MY Lord and My King.
However, no matter how powerful the feelings are, no matter how real it appears to be, if it can't hold up to the rigors of intellectual examination then it is, unfortunately, false. I look back on all my spiritual experiences as simply my own emotions spurred on by my "priming the pump"- getting myself all worked up emotionally through praise and song. From someone whose been under the spell of faith I know exactly how strong the delusion is. It was unbelievably, heart wrenchingly hard to slowly watch my precious Lord Jesus go up in smoke. But just because something feels good doesn't necessarily make it true no matter how much I want it to be.
So feel free to keep commenting on my posts - prove me wrong! I am most definitely open to living forever with a loving Father like God.
I apologize for making the assumption that you've never experienced God. I am truly sorry.
I am trying to understand.
I quote you from July 23, 2006 'This may sound strange but I actually had, what some may call, a mystical/spiritual experience when I left my faith.
After months of doubt and anguished prayer I decided to go for a walk one evening. As I walked I suddenly blurted out, "I'm an atheist, I'm an a-theist, I don't believe in God". I repeated it a few times, letting it sink in. As I walked my senses seemed to double, time seemed to slow and I became acutely aware of my footsteps, my breath, the leaves rustling in the autumn air. The sky even looked different. As I walked this overwhelming peace and joy came over me. I even did some twirls in the middle of the street! I felt all my doubt, disappointment, and guilt lift away. What a powerful, magical experience it was.'
Just as coming to faith in God is a 'mystical/spiritual experience' so is taking on a new faith.
You switched faith in God for faith in ...... what?!?
M.K.
Do you remember your conversion to a belief in God?
"If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that He is God, then you shall be saved."
The only difference in the before and after is a few little words which go something to the effect of 'I believe in you, God.'
All you did was to say those words or agree with someone who said those words for you.
What you did that day on the street was the same thing. 'As I walked I suddenly blurted out, "I'm an atheist, I'm an a-theist, I don't believe in God". I repeated it a few times, letting it sink in.' With those words you confessed a faith against God. A - against, theist - God. Athiest means anti-God. If you knew God and had experienced God as a true friend why did you turn your back on Him?
M.K.
Well I was going to comment today but I ran out of time and now I have to leave for work. Somedays work can be a real pain! Just letting you know that I'm not ignoring your comments or anything.
I quote you, 'But just because something feels good doesn't necessarily make it true no matter how much I want it to be.'
True, but action will determine if it ever can be true.
How do you determine if your relationship with someone is friendship? Is it not based on mutual interaction that feels good? And if that interaction feels bad then you are not friends? Does it not also have to be a decision to be or not to be a friend? Then action needs to follow that decision. Action then works to prove that friendship. So then frienship requires feelings, decision, and action. Even feelings are not essential to the friendship. Decision and action alone over a period of time will produce the corresponding feelings.
But the most important part of relationship / friendship is decision.
We all understand what a 'crush' is, but as powerful as it is it will not develop into love or friendship without action / decision.
Likewise indecision / inaction will also kill it, eventually.
M.K.
Ya my deconversion experience was quite something. I still think about it some days. I guess when I say I had a spiritual/mystical experience, I'm using the words fairly loosely. I had the symptoms/emotions of a spiritual experience. I had what some would say was a mystical/spiritual experience. But for me I think it was a natural, human response.
I think I triggered something in me that religious people also experience. Just as Christian converts die to their old self and are born anew in Christ - a new creation, I too experienced the same thing. My belief in God had become a weight on my shoulders, I was riddled with doubt, disappointment, and major intellectual issues with God and the bible and every other walk before that night I would agonize and pray and debate about God and his existence but the night of my deconversion I had the burden of God lifted. I too became a new creation. I felt so free, all my old baggage was off my shoulders and lying before me on the ground. It wasn't like I had to enter another religion, it was just that I left mine behind and started anew (without any supernatural beliefs). Just like xian converts leave the baggage of their old, sinful life behind and start anew with Christ.
Maybe I'll add as well that prior to my deconversion I had some major disappointments with God. I became very disillusioned and angry with God. Doubt started to grow. It was during this time that I did a lot of reading and thinking about God and life. When I started to realize I was on the verge of actually loosing my faith I decided to lay it on the line with God. I asked for forgiveness and put all my anger and disappointment under the bridge and told God that I'm on the verge of actually loosing my faith. The past doesn't matter, what really matters is my faith in you.
So for the few months leading up to my deconverion, with my faith down to a burning ember, my prayer was simply this:
"Dear God, I pray that you might reveal to me Truth. I pray that you might fill me, overwhelm me with your spirit like you did so many times in the past so that I might know your real. Make yourself known to me."
I prayed this prayer from the heart, but in a non emotional way so that I’d know it wasn’t my own emotions kicking in after "priming the emotional pump" with songs of praise and prayer.
But there was no response. Apparently, if God was real, instead of gently blowing on the dying embers of my faith, he simply did nothing and watched it die.
During this time I continued to do lots of reading and debating in my mind about God and Christianity - but I found my faith losing most of the battles. The truth became apparent to me - Christianity was a man made religion. Finally the day of my deconversion came and sealed the deal. It confirmed what my heart and mind had come to believe.
So that's a little of my "testimony". I see I've rambled on for quite a while so I'll quickly address some of the other things you mentioned.
As for your last comment I do remember when I became a Christian. I think I was 5 or 6 and I repeated a prayer with my dad and believed in my heart and I was saved, just like Romans 10:9. And your right, I did basically the same thing when I confessed my atheism. But here I'll nitpick and disagree with you when you said, "With those words you confessed a faith against God." Instead, I simply confessed my belief that God does not exist. I'm not against God, I'm against the belief in God. I assume you don't believe in Zeus, so your an atheist to that god. But suppose millions of people today worshipped him as God. Would you consider yourself to be against Zeus, or against the belief in Zeus? Atheism doesn't mean anti-God. Its simply the belief that God does not exist. A(no) + Theos(God).
But here's the point I'm trying to make. When I was 5 or 6 years old I REALLY did believe in my heart that Jesus was God. Conversion was simple. However, today I don't believe in my heart. I could confess with my mouth but I would be lying because deep down I don't believe it. Again, reread the above Ingersoll quote on believing as you must, not as you wish. Why is a man's level of belief (or skepticism) the ultimate criteria for eternal life?
I don't believe Jesus Christ is God, just as you don't believe Zeus is God. How is that a sin worth eternal punishment? Furthermore it's funny how Christ's forgiveness and the power of the cross completely expire at the moment of death. So when I die I could stand before God with remorse, repentance, humility and love and humbly seek God's forgiveness yet I will be sent away - God's love and grace, Christ's death and rez, all ineffective, all expired. Meanwhile, someone who believed Jesus came to earth, and whose belief was fueled by fear, fear of death and hell, this person will receive eternal life. Unfortunately, the man who didn't believe, the man who stuck with his convictions, who faced death with courage and dignity, who honestly didn’t believe in God, this man will face judgment. The power of the cross - powerless!
True grace should be this: at the end of the age a godless sinner is standing before Jesus ready to be judged. Jesus says, "out of my grace I forgive you. You are welcome in my kingdom. Do you accept me?"
O.K. I’ve rambled on WAY too long. Hope this gave you some insight as to why I’m an atheist.
wow, looks like we had a simul-post
If you don't believe God exists, then why do you believe in a heaven and hell? To believe in heaven and hell is to believe that there is a power out there greater than you are that has the power for you to either go to heaven and hell.
hey Krissy,
I'm not believing in heaven and hell. I'm arguing from the christian perspective as a way of making a point.
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